I appreciate you commenting on that. I can't stop this crap even if I tried. I'm kind of afraid to. Can you explain your path from being in bands to poetry?
I definitely remember dropping flyers off at Hot Topic! I used to stick flyers in people’s shopping bags at CVS as well. The Walkman idea is genius, there’s no skipping, you’re not getting out of that situation!
I totally understand the rhyming thing for flow and memory and catchiness. I tend to stick to near rhymes in lyrics...for me I need that box to work within and I need that and it's easy to tell if you're done...when he words are fit to all the music.
Kind of like when a song goes to press. There is no returning from that. Even if it comes out digital only, you can go back and take it down at any time, but you can't get rid of pressing unless you put them all together and burn them or something.
Yes, exactly.
What's promotion of poetry like compared to being in a band aside from it being a one man show? How does the pay-off compare?
Honestly man, the pay-off with poetry is that I get to travel anywhere I want, when I want, provided my schedule allows me to. In April 2023 I flew to England to hang with three incredible friends I had been corresponding with since 2019/2020, Mark Anthony Pearce, Danny D. Ford, and Gwil James Thomas. Mark had arranged a few poetry readings in Bristol and we spent the week together. It was one of the greatest experiences of my life. I think that’s one of the biggest differences between music and poetry, the flexibility of traveling when it works. Think about it man, how many tours have you gone on where you’re fighting about whose turn it is for gas, where you’re going to eat that night, where you’re going to sleep?
On the few tours I did when I was younger, there were definitely a lot of fights for whatever reason. I could feel resentment building daily. It was tough touring with a bunch of emotionally immature people and being at the helm and perhaps the most emotionally immature. haha. I can see the gratification in only having to rely on you to make the tour a "success." In the little trips I do now, we are all older and make it a point to check out the local cities or towns we are in. It seems similar to what you are doing.
I think you nailed it, man. When you’re younger and emotionally immature, you exist solely on excited energy and you don’t think about the future because you take a hard stance against responsibility. But now, with aging comes maturity and responsibility. People’s interests change too. I think that’s the coolest part about growing up. We are always evolving. People see things differently and want to experience things differently… And yeah, with poetry you sort of just follow the road to wherever it takes you. And much like music, with poetry you have a set time. The last few readings I’ve done I’ve had 5 - 10 minutes of reading time. That allows a ton of opportunity to explore a city, observe its people, embrace its horrors and beauties. Every time I went on tour with bands, it was: load the van, drive to the venue, unload, play, load the van, find somewhere to sleep, wake up, drive to the next venue, rinse and repeat. Poetry allows me freedom. And lately I’ve been hitting the road with my good friend Scott Laudati. We’ve been to Kentucky three times in less than a year. This last time around we were chasing snakes, turtles, and muskrats and trespassing on people’s property to watch the sunset over the Ohio River. All things that otherwise I never experienced while in bands.
That sounds incredible. Those are the things you remember over doing the reading, I bet. You and I both know, fronting an abrasive band can be cathartic: playing 20 minutes and ending a set dripping in sweat and out of breath. It's a physical release as much as it is creative. Do you find that, with readings, you are getting a different kind of release? Do you still yearn for that physical release?
I definitely have pre-show rituals. Playing in front of people has become more difficult for me as I get older. I'm not the overly-confident kid who can get a room full of people to singalong anymore. If I'm being honest, I miss that and kinda long for it again. Now, I, like you, turn my back to the audience, but I think for different reasons. It seems I'm trying to make myself smaller. A lot of my rituals involve getting my voice ready, if I'm singing/screaming, or just trying to get in the right frame of mind. They aren't as intense as yours, but I think I view the audience differently. Perhaps I'd benefit from reframing that. haha. Anyway, who is interviewing who here? hahah How is it for you as you grow and become more self-aware? Do you find it easier getting in front of people now? How do you feel when you finish a poetry set as compared to a set with Four Fingers or Permanent Tension? To expand, how about playing bass for Johnny Cab as opposed to vocals? I know both experiences for me are totally different.
Listen, for as loud and outgoing as I sometimes appear, I’m totally crippled by low self-esteem and terrible confidence… so yeah, I still feel safer when performing with a band. When you’re the singer, the focal point is typically on you, which is perhaps another reason why I have my back to the audience and only face the band. Too many eyes, too much pressure. When I sang in Four Fingers we had catchy singalongs, so I tried my hardest to shift the focus from the band to the audience. So in a sense, it’s a contradiction from my statement of viewing the audience as the enemy. Four Fingers, early on anyway, required audience participation due to the singalongs. Johnny-Cab Suicide was similar, but Ben Scardo sang which took the eyes off me and allowed me to play bass and do backing vocals when necessary. It was definitely easier not having to worry about engaging the audience. But with Permanent Tension my views became more extreme. It was also a much more technical band. Writing lyrics to Adam Kaniper’s guitar parts was the most difficult thing I’ve ever done with music. I also placed a lot of pressure on myself with Permanent Tension because I grew up listening to all of Adam’s bands and I didn’t want to let him down. So Permanent Tension always maintained the belief “we play for ourselves, and ourselves alone. And if anyone happens to enjoy it, that’s cool too.”
But I suppose I should really answer your question about how I feel when I finish poetry sets versus music sets. Four Fingers shows were always wild and fun. We had a very solid fan base who knew every fucking word. I look back fondly at those years because as tumultuous as the band was, it was a great time. Jeff Wasserburger and Ryan Betrix along with Chris and myself accomplished so much when no one thought we would… I think I ended more Four Fingers shows with a smile than I ever did in any other band. Johnny-Cab Suicide was also very fun, and I’d say similar to Four Fingers. It was always great being in a room with Jeff and Chris and Ben. Permanent Tension was, and still is, my favorite project I’ve ever been a part of. We existed for about 2 - 3 years, wrote and recorded an 8 song lp, played a handful of shows, and had such a wonderful time. Again, because I put so much pressure on myself with Permanent Tension, I felt like each show took so much out of me. Earlier you used the word cathartic. I would have to use that word too, for all three bands. But sometimes with poetry, I feel so much anxiety leading up to my reading, during the reading, and after the reading that it’s hard to truly feel like I’ve accomplished something. And that’s the really difficult part of poetry. Rarely does anyone ever say “hey great reading tonight.” Nobody wants to buy books. Nobody reads anymore! I honestly give away more books than I sell. I just want my fucking words read, that’s it. And that’s a caveat I always give to people when I give my books away—take a picture and post it online with my name and the title of the book. Some people follow through and those are the ones who get more free shit.
I know you work in the mental health field. Can you briefly explain your job? How does your job influence your writing?
I’m a social worker in a psychiatric hospital. I’m supposed to discharge patients and arrange aftercare for them. But the large majority of the population I work with can’t be discharged due to their level of functioning, meaning psychiatric state, active violence, etc. I try to focus on making their lives better while in the hospital. Being a social worker has influenced my writing either through direct or indirect contact with patients. People are fascinating man. Go to a public place, find a place to sit, and just observe. What you witness will provide you a lifetime of material.
As someone who works with a helping profession, I know how taxing it can be. Do you have any tips or pointers on managing your own mental health?
Remember when we worked for that in-home counseling agency in North Jersey? I think you actually worked for two at the time. They all had names that sounded like youth crew posi hardcore bands. It’s a shame they were so terribly managed… Do I have any tips on managing my own mental health? Not really, ha! I’m a wounded healer as many of us are. It’s easier for me to help people than it is myself. But with all seriousness, I think what helps me get through the night is having a good, and wide support system. Surrounding myself with people who aren’t going to always agree with me leads to stronger friendships because I know they aren’t going to just tell me what I want to hear. Ryan Tompkins is the best at this. He tells me how it is, no matter how shitty it might be to hear, and no matter how badly it might hurt. And even though I rarely see him these days, I know he’ll be there if I reach out. And I love him for that. Besides, life is hard enough as it is.
What do you have coming up? List anything you'd like to plug.
Honestly man, as far as poetry goes, I’m taking a much needed break from publishing books. Currently I’m focusing on editing poems I’ve written over the last few years. I’m sitting on top of a 70 poem manuscript which I wrote from winter ’22 to spring ’23. I’m sitting on top of 168 haikus and 193 unpublished and uncollected poems… I’d like to get those as tight as possible before sending them out for possible publication, ya know? As far as music goes, Permanent Tension is playing “New Jersey vs. Valhalla” on June 8th, 2024 so that should be cool. I provided vocals to a 5 song ep with Tom Schlatter but he’s crazy busy with Saetia and Hundreds of AU and everything else he does so I haven’t followed up with him about it. So really who the fuck knows, man. I’m just very thankful for all the opportunities I’ve had in these 34 years I’ve been alive. Each morning I wake up and ask myself, Tohm, has the edge gone dull? And I tell myself, no, I’m bringing it down with this hammer I got, this is my burning fight. Anyway, I think we should end here. Thanks again, Paul.
Same.
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